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	<description>Where are you going next?</description>
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		<title>Comment on Fan Pages or Groups? by John Ford</title>
		<link>http://www.danceweekend.com/2010/03/06/fan-pages-or-groups/comment-page-1/#comment-667</link>
		<dc:creator>John Ford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 May 2010 17:43:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.danceweekend.com/?p=56#comment-667</guid>
		<description>Yup, I know what you meant, Steve.  Groups are flat-out annoying because the owner of the group can -and usually will- email you about any little thing whenever they feel like it.  That&#039;s why as a consumer, I prefer fan pages over groups.  It really doesn&#039;t bother me if there&#039;s a post in my stream that I can simply ignore.  But I hate having to delete tons of useless, to me, emails.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yup, I know what you meant, Steve.  Groups are flat-out annoying because the owner of the group can -and usually will- email you about any little thing whenever they feel like it.  That&#8217;s why as a consumer, I prefer fan pages over groups.  It really doesn&#8217;t bother me if there&#8217;s a post in my stream that I can simply ignore.  But I hate having to delete tons of useless, to me, emails.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Forums are so 2004 by John Ford</title>
		<link>http://www.danceweekend.com/2009/10/23/forums-are-so-2004/comment-page-1/#comment-666</link>
		<dc:creator>John Ford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 May 2010 17:40:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.danceweekend.com/?p=33#comment-666</guid>
		<description>Hey Shawn,

Sorry I missed your post among all the spam.  You make great points and hyperbole aside, I never meant to say that posting on local forums isn&#039;t worthwhile.  It definitely is.  The only thing is it&#039;s a very time-consuming and laborious process.  I think it is worthwhile to start a thread about your event on any related forum you can find.  Not just national forums like Yehoodi but even the smaller local forums like aseda.org in Atlanta.  However, I don&#039;t think it&#039;s worth going back and posting an update on each forum every time you book a new band or secure a cool venue, or every time a new price-increase deadline is looming.  It&#039;s just too much work for very little return.  Those things are much better posted into a twitter or facebook stream.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Shawn,</p>
<p>Sorry I missed your post among all the spam.  You make great points and hyperbole aside, I never meant to say that posting on local forums isn&#8217;t worthwhile.  It definitely is.  The only thing is it&#8217;s a very time-consuming and laborious process.  I think it is worthwhile to start a thread about your event on any related forum you can find.  Not just national forums like Yehoodi but even the smaller local forums like aseda.org in Atlanta.  However, I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s worth going back and posting an update on each forum every time you book a new band or secure a cool venue, or every time a new price-increase deadline is looming.  It&#8217;s just too much work for very little return.  Those things are much better posted into a twitter or facebook stream.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Fan Pages or Groups? by Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.danceweekend.com/2010/03/06/fan-pages-or-groups/comment-page-1/#comment-665</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 May 2010 15:56:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.danceweekend.com/?p=56#comment-665</guid>
		<description>i&#039;ve found i&#039;ve started leaving more and more groups... sick of the constant notifications, even for events i might want to go to.  i&#039;m not sure HOW i&#039;d recommend event organizers get to me anymore... maybe just go back to the good ol&#039; lindy calendar (or dance weekend, why not?) system?  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i&#8217;ve found i&#8217;ve started leaving more and more groups&#8230; sick of the constant notifications, even for events i might want to go to.  i&#8217;m not sure HOW i&#8217;d recommend event organizers get to me anymore&#8230; maybe just go back to the good ol&#8217; lindy calendar (or dance weekend, why not?) system?  <img src='http://www.danceweekend.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>Comment on Fan Pages or Groups? by John Ford</title>
		<link>http://www.danceweekend.com/2010/03/06/fan-pages-or-groups/comment-page-1/#comment-237</link>
		<dc:creator>John Ford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 17:04:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.danceweekend.com/?p=56#comment-237</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I know what you mean kait.  That&#039;s another reason that as a user, it&#039;s better to be a Fan than in a group.  Fan pages can&#039;t arbitrarily send out a message to all of its fans like groups can.  Not pointing any fingers, but some organizers send me an email (well, a message on FB, which ends up in my gmail inbox) about their event Every. Single. Day.

Now, I don&#039;t mind seeing that their &quot;pre-registration closes in 4 days!!!!&quot;  Really, I don&#039;t, even though I&#039;m not going to their event.  What I do dislike is the medium they chose to use to tell me because now I can&#039;t just process the information, decide it doesn&#039;t pertain to me right now, go on about my life, and let the post fade into the history of my feed.  By sending that info as a message, they are now forcing my hand and making me take some action, even if it&#039;s only to delete the email.  Seems like a small thing, but like you say, deleting tons of message and emails gets old.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I know what you mean kait.  That&#8217;s another reason that as a user, it&#8217;s better to be a Fan than in a group.  Fan pages can&#8217;t arbitrarily send out a message to all of its fans like groups can.  Not pointing any fingers, but some organizers send me an email (well, a message on FB, which ends up in my gmail inbox) about their event Every. Single. Day.</p>
<p>Now, I don&#8217;t mind seeing that their &#8220;pre-registration closes in 4 days!!!!&#8221;  Really, I don&#8217;t, even though I&#8217;m not going to their event.  What I do dislike is the medium they chose to use to tell me because now I can&#8217;t just process the information, decide it doesn&#8217;t pertain to me right now, go on about my life, and let the post fade into the history of my feed.  By sending that info as a message, they are now forcing my hand and making me take some action, even if it&#8217;s only to delete the email.  Seems like a small thing, but like you say, deleting tons of message and emails gets old.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Fan Pages or Groups? by kait</title>
		<link>http://www.danceweekend.com/2010/03/06/fan-pages-or-groups/comment-page-1/#comment-236</link>
		<dc:creator>kait</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 14:21:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.danceweekend.com/?p=56#comment-236</guid>
		<description>i&#039;ve found i&#039;ve started leaving more and more groups... sick of the constant notifications, even for events i might want to go to.  i&#039;m not sure HOW i&#039;d recommend event organizers get to me anymore... maybe just go back to the good ol&#039; lindy calendar (or dance weekend, why not?) system?  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i&#8217;ve found i&#8217;ve started leaving more and more groups&#8230; sick of the constant notifications, even for events i might want to go to.  i&#8217;m not sure HOW i&#8217;d recommend event organizers get to me anymore&#8230; maybe just go back to the good ol&#8217; lindy calendar (or dance weekend, why not?) system?  <img src='http://www.danceweekend.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>Comment on Fan Pages or Groups? by John Ford</title>
		<link>http://www.danceweekend.com/2010/03/06/fan-pages-or-groups/comment-page-1/#comment-231</link>
		<dc:creator>John Ford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 12:35:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.danceweekend.com/?p=56#comment-231</guid>
		<description>There is a cap on numbers but I&#039;m not sure it&#039;s a big deal for our purposes.  Groups are capped at 5000 members.  Fan pages can run into the millions.  But I don&#039;t know of any swing events even pushing the 5000 mark yet.

As for diluting the stream, that&#039;s the nature of advertising.  But I&#039;m not sure what you think you get from a group that you don&#039;t get from a fan page.  Basically, for the purpose of mesagging users, everything you get in a group, you also get with a fan page.  PLUS your posts make it into their stream.  There is one thing missing from fan pages: the ability to send an email to all users.  But you can do that from an event-page, so you&#039;re not really losing that option, at all.

You make a good point about the national crowd not wanting hear about your local weekly event, every week.  But that comes down to the organizers knowing their audience, not diluting their brand, and not spamming their fans with irrelevant info.  If it&#039;s a &quot;FubarEX&quot; fan page, people want to hear about &quot;FubarEX&quot;, not Mom &amp; Pop&#039;s weekly Swing-Throwdown.  (I apologize if these are actual event, ha!)  An organizer wanting to do a good job of marketing their event should realize that and act accordingly. Otherwise, they &lt;em&gt;will&lt;/em&gt; get their posts marked &quot;Hide&quot; by their fans.  But even then...to that user, their fan page is practically the same as a group.  So have you lost anything?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a cap on numbers but I&#8217;m not sure it&#8217;s a big deal for our purposes.  Groups are capped at 5000 members.  Fan pages can run into the millions.  But I don&#8217;t know of any swing events even pushing the 5000 mark yet.</p>
<p>As for diluting the stream, that&#8217;s the nature of advertising.  But I&#8217;m not sure what you think you get from a group that you don&#8217;t get from a fan page.  Basically, for the purpose of mesagging users, everything you get in a group, you also get with a fan page.  PLUS your posts make it into their stream.  There is one thing missing from fan pages: the ability to send an email to all users.  But you can do that from an event-page, so you&#8217;re not really losing that option, at all.</p>
<p>You make a good point about the national crowd not wanting hear about your local weekly event, every week.  But that comes down to the organizers knowing their audience, not diluting their brand, and not spamming their fans with irrelevant info.  If it&#8217;s a &#8220;FubarEX&#8221; fan page, people want to hear about &#8220;FubarEX&#8221;, not Mom &#038; Pop&#8217;s weekly Swing-Throwdown.  (I apologize if these are actual event, ha!)  An organizer wanting to do a good job of marketing their event should realize that and act accordingly. Otherwise, they <em>will</em> get their posts marked &#8220;Hide&#8221; by their fans.  But even then&#8230;to that user, their fan page is practically the same as a group.  So have you lost anything?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Fan Pages or Groups? by The Riz</title>
		<link>http://www.danceweekend.com/2010/03/06/fan-pages-or-groups/comment-page-1/#comment-230</link>
		<dc:creator>The Riz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 11:33:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.danceweekend.com/?p=56#comment-230</guid>
		<description>Also, as the # of friends/groups/fan one has grows, the stream becomes more and more diluted. I can&#039;t keep track of the posting of the 200 or so active friends I have on facebook. Therefore, I disagree with you and think that Groups are the way to promote. The trouble is that you must distinguish Your LOCAL from your NATIONAL/Wide-Area Group. 
The folks from out of town that want to come to your yearly superbig event do not want to hear about your weekly class schedule even if you think it&#039;s a good opportunity to increase your audience size for local events. 
Watering down the message was the downfall of myspace advertising, and is creeping on facebook. 

What about starting a new friend page for your event and becoming friends with people instead of fans or groups? It would allow you to both show up on the news-stream as well as email and invite folx? Or do they cap the #s in something?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, as the # of friends/groups/fan one has grows, the stream becomes more and more diluted. I can&#8217;t keep track of the posting of the 200 or so active friends I have on facebook. Therefore, I disagree with you and think that Groups are the way to promote. The trouble is that you must distinguish Your LOCAL from your NATIONAL/Wide-Area Group.<br />
The folks from out of town that want to come to your yearly superbig event do not want to hear about your weekly class schedule even if you think it&#8217;s a good opportunity to increase your audience size for local events.<br />
Watering down the message was the downfall of myspace advertising, and is creeping on facebook. </p>
<p>What about starting a new friend page for your event and becoming friends with people instead of fans or groups? It would allow you to both show up on the news-stream as well as email and invite folx? Or do they cap the #s in something?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Fan Pages or Groups? by John Ford</title>
		<link>http://www.danceweekend.com/2010/03/06/fan-pages-or-groups/comment-page-1/#comment-225</link>
		<dc:creator>John Ford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Mar 2010 23:58:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.danceweekend.com/?p=56#comment-225</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s a good point, Breanna.  If I were the organizer of a large regional or nation event, or a regular dance like Hot-Jam or Jam Cellar, I&#039;d probably create both a Fan page and a group.  But I would strip the group&#039;s page of things like the photos, videos, discussions and links tabs and reserve those for the fan page.  I&#039;d also disable posts to the group&#039;s wall.  That way you could still provide information to the people who prefer groups but still have your Fan page be the main focus of your Facebook &quot;identity&quot; and interaction with dancers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a good point, Breanna.  If I were the organizer of a large regional or nation event, or a regular dance like Hot-Jam or Jam Cellar, I&#8217;d probably create both a Fan page and a group.  But I would strip the group&#8217;s page of things like the photos, videos, discussions and links tabs and reserve those for the fan page.  I&#8217;d also disable posts to the group&#8217;s wall.  That way you could still provide information to the people who prefer groups but still have your Fan page be the main focus of your Facebook &#8220;identity&#8221; and interaction with dancers.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Fan Pages or Groups? by Breanna</title>
		<link>http://www.danceweekend.com/2010/03/06/fan-pages-or-groups/comment-page-1/#comment-224</link>
		<dc:creator>Breanna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Mar 2010 22:57:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.danceweekend.com/?p=56#comment-224</guid>
		<description>Good write-up, John. But how do you address those stubborn facebook users (sometimes I&#039;m among them) who refuse to be a &quot;fan&quot; of anything? It would seem the only way to address that part of your event stream then would be through the group option.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good write-up, John. But how do you address those stubborn facebook users (sometimes I&#8217;m among them) who refuse to be a &#8220;fan&#8221; of anything? It would seem the only way to address that part of your event stream then would be through the group option.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Forums are so 2004 by Shawn</title>
		<link>http://www.danceweekend.com/2009/10/23/forums-are-so-2004/comment-page-1/#comment-203</link>
		<dc:creator>Shawn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 06:19:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.danceweekend.com/?p=33#comment-203</guid>
		<description>I must disagree.  Facebook and Twitter present real problems for event information dissemination.  The first and foremost is that they both require subscription to an event before notices can be received.  The boon of local forums is that members are already listening and paying attention to topics of interest.  Getting their attention is easy.  

The fantastic point of it all is that for your Twitter/Facebook promo to work, you must first promote in &quot;traditional&quot; means -- emails, local forums, local list-serves etc.  Of course, only a small percentage of individuals will subscribe to your announcement list.  If you then rely on the Twitter/Facebook only, you fail to reach the majority of your potential audience.

This brings me to a touchier subject: age-ism.  Sure, a certain group of tech-savvy individuals are on Facebook and Twitter, but there&#039;s a significant portion of the population that is not.  By restricting advertising means to Twitter/Facebook you lose access to this population as well.

People self-subscribe to local forums and even larger ones such as Yehoodi; only a percentage of those will respond positively to a solicitation to join an events list-serve. (Use all the buzz words you want, you&#039;re talking about using twitter as an announce-only list-serv.) Because of this, any advertising method that requires subscription to the service is inherently a diminishing return.  As years progress, you draw fewer and fewer new folks to your list and many of the folks on your list become in active.  At the end of the day, on it&#039;s own the list is meaningless.  

Twitter and Facebook are useful tools, but they will only ever make sense in the context of broader promotional efforts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must disagree.  Facebook and Twitter present real problems for event information dissemination.  The first and foremost is that they both require subscription to an event before notices can be received.  The boon of local forums is that members are already listening and paying attention to topics of interest.  Getting their attention is easy.  </p>
<p>The fantastic point of it all is that for your Twitter/Facebook promo to work, you must first promote in &#8220;traditional&#8221; means &#8212; emails, local forums, local list-serves etc.  Of course, only a small percentage of individuals will subscribe to your announcement list.  If you then rely on the Twitter/Facebook only, you fail to reach the majority of your potential audience.</p>
<p>This brings me to a touchier subject: age-ism.  Sure, a certain group of tech-savvy individuals are on Facebook and Twitter, but there&#8217;s a significant portion of the population that is not.  By restricting advertising means to Twitter/Facebook you lose access to this population as well.</p>
<p>People self-subscribe to local forums and even larger ones such as Yehoodi; only a percentage of those will respond positively to a solicitation to join an events list-serve. (Use all the buzz words you want, you&#8217;re talking about using twitter as an announce-only list-serv.) Because of this, any advertising method that requires subscription to the service is inherently a diminishing return.  As years progress, you draw fewer and fewer new folks to your list and many of the folks on your list become in active.  At the end of the day, on it&#8217;s own the list is meaningless.  </p>
<p>Twitter and Facebook are useful tools, but they will only ever make sense in the context of broader promotional efforts.</p>
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